Ocean Sediments and Salts: What do they really tell us?

To begin is some general questions in brief with the research that talks about that question. Then I have my writing on the topic from the Naturalistic view and the Creation view.


Is this right? Do you evolutionists agree with your position? I tried to write it as you believe it. Do you have any disagreements or concerns or additions?





Ocean Sediments and Salt

a.       There is not enough sediment in the ocean especially if there were more time for erosion to occur.

                                                              i.      A Pocket Guide to…Best Evidences: Science and the Bible refute millions of years, Answers in Genesis – US, 2013.

                                                            ii.      http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/am/v7/n4/little-sediment  

                                                          iii.      http://www.icr.org/article/56/

b.       Over time the ocean would become more filled with sediments and salts, but currently the ocean is not that salty, another evidence of a young earth.

                                                        i.            http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/am/v7/n4/sea-salt

                                                      ii.            http://www.palomar.edu/oceanography/salty_ocean.htm

                                                    iii.            http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&ved=0CEYQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Foceanservice.noaa.gov%2Ffacts%2Fwhysalty.html&ei=EDdYUsPPDZTlyAHOpoH4Bw&usg=AFQjCNH0oR27i1gc87dIAkbqeeW66c5ZoQ&bvm=bv.53899372,d.aWc

c.       Are the estimations being exaggerated? Are the estimations accurate? Are the estimations twisted to present one view better than another? Who do we believe? The question is basically: which side do we have more faith in?

                                                              i.      http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/hovind/howgood-yea.html

1.       Numbers 13, 15, 21, 24

                                                            ii.      http://www.lpl.arizona.edu/~matthewt/yeclaimsbeta.html

Title:  Ocean Sediments and Salt by Brian Mariani and others

 

Introduction:

                 The ocean is salty and full of sediments. How salty is the ocean? How much sediment is in the oceans? Is this evidence that the earth is only thousands not millions of years old? Why is the ocean salty? Does the saltiness of the ocean fluctuate?

 

Naturalistic/Evolutionary Answer:

                There is not as much sediments in the ocean, because seafloor sediments have accumulated at a much slower rate in the past and high levels of tectonic activity would rid the oceans of much of the sediments that had been deposited.[i]

The slower rate of sediment accumulation in the past may be in part due to increased desertification and human influence on the land, like so much deforestation, loss of vegetative cover, and simply hard use of the land. Live Science reports that “human activity causes 10 times more soil erosion than all natural processes combined.”[ii]

Some sediment has subducted into the crust of the earth due to the movement of tectonic plates. Sea floor spreading is the process of the sea floor moving like a conveyor belt with new rock churning up from below and sediments on the ocean floor funneled back into the earth under ocean trenches.[iii]

                Oceans have also been in different places in the past and so as continents uplift, submerge or change over time, the oceans are not constantly stacking up sediment in one place. Ocean floor can uplift and again become landmasses.[iv]

How salty is the ocean? “Some scientists estimate that the oceans contain as much as 50 quadrillion tons (50 million billion tons) of dissolved solids. If the salt in the sea could be removed and spread evenly over the Earth’s land surface it would form a layer more than 500 feet thick .”[v]

                The oceans are salty because of the sediments and salts that are constantly washed out into the sea from off of the continents. The oceans are not too salty because today they “probably have a balanced salt input and outgo” because “about the same tonnage of salt from the ocean water probably is deposited as sediment on the ocean bottom.”[vi]

                The extensive size of the oceans (about 70% of the Earth’s surface) create challenges in truly understanding everything about the oceans. “The salinity of ocean water varies. It is affected by such factors as melting of ice, inflow of river water, evaporation, rain, snowfall, wind, wave motion, and ocean currents that cause horizontal and vertical mixing of the saltwater.” It is also possible that “sea life has a strong influence on the composition of sea water.”[vii]

“At least 72 chemical elements have been identified in sea water” some more abundant in certain places. Europe, for instance, contributes more salt to the ocean than Australia. In chemistry, when certain chemicals come together, they become insoluble (not dissolvable in water). So those solid salts will gradually fall to the ocean floor.[viii]

Ultimately, there are so many things going on with…the ocean, that there may be many other factors that affect the sediment and salt content of the ocean. Rates and estimations are approximated and so one has to be careful in evaluating, extrapolating, and making conclusions about the age of the ocean.[ix]

 

Creation Answer:

“Every year water and wind erode about 20 billion tons of dirt and rock debris from the continents and deposit them on the seafloor.” So “the seafloor should be choked with sediment many miles deep.” On average, there is only about 1,300 feet of sediment which is not even close to a mile deep. Sediment is known to be lost due to tectonic plate activity, but with everything into account, that 1,300 feet of sediment would take 12 million years to form and that’s it. However, that doesn’t cause a problem for us, because the global flood would have caused a lot of sediment to build up initially. Over about 3 billion years, the sediment would be “250x more sediment than we seen today.” This is a huge difference.

The argument that the sediments may not have accumulated that fast in the past still has other problems. The shape of the sediments off the coast is evidence of sediments being rushed off the continents quickly and not over a very slow process. The underwater landscape would look totally different if it had formed slowly over billions of years.

Ultimately as erosion rates go, the continents would erode “into the ocean in about 14 million years.”[x] So how do we still even have continents if the Earth has been changing for supposedly millions and billions of years?[xi]

                Part of the sediments eroding into the water is salt, which is dissolved into sea water and that is why the oceans taste salty. So over time, as more erosion occurs, the oceans get saltier. “After 3 billion years, we would expect to see 70x more salt in the ocean than we see today.” 122 million tons of sodium are removed from the oceans each year, but this is not much compared to the 458 million tons that are added each year. Current salt levels would have only taken 42 million years to add up.

                Again, to uphold an old earth point of view, one would have to claim that the rates of change were a lot different throughout history.[xii]

                From a old earth point of view, these sediments and salts would be devastating to the evolution of ocean and land organisms. If the waters had too much sediment or salt, they would not be very suitable for life.

Evolutionists have to make large, extensive assumptions about the history of the Earth, whereas one assumption (accredited by God and history) that there was a massive worldwide flood over a short Earth history is a simpler solution.

 

What the Bible Says: Creation - Genesis 1, The Flood - Gen 7-9

 

Pictures to Add: Erosion, Continental Shelf, Ocean Trench, Salt Depictions, Sediment Depictions,

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[i] A Pocket Guide to…Best Evidences: Science and the Bible refute millions of years, Answers in Genesis – US, 2013.

Stewart E. Nevins, M.S., Evolution: The Ocrean says NO!, Institute for Creation Research, http://www.icr.org/article/56/, accessed October 11, 2013.

[ii] Earth Movers: Humans Cause Most Erosion, November 3, 2004, LiveScience Staff, LiveScience, http://www.livescience.com/63-earth-movers-humans-erosion.html, accessed October 11, 2013.

[iii] A Pocket Guide to…Best Evidences: Science and the Bible refute millions of years, Answers in Genesis – US, 2013.

Stewart E. Nevins, M.S., Evolution: The Ocrean says NO!, Institute for Creation Research, http://www.icr.org/article/56/, accessed October 11, 2013.

[iv] Stewart E. Nevins, M.S., Evolution: The Ocrean says NO!, Institute for Creation Research, http://www.icr.org/article/56/, accessed October 11, 2013.

[v] Herbert Swenson, Why is the Ocean Salty? US Geological Survey Publication, http://www.palomar.edu/oceanography/salty_ocean.htm, accessed October 11, 2013.

[vi] Herbert Swenson, Why is the Ocean Salty? US Geological Survey Publication, http://www.palomar.edu/oceanography/salty_ocean.htm, accessed October 11, 2013.

[vii] Herbert Swenson, Why is the Ocean Salty? US Geological Survey Publication, http://www.palomar.edu/oceanography/salty_ocean.htm, accessed October 11, 2013.

[viii] Herbert Swenson, Why is the Ocean Salty? US Geological Survey Publication, http://www.palomar.edu/oceanography/salty_ocean.htm, accessed October 11, 2013.

[ix] Matthew S. Tiscareno, Is There Really Scientific Evidence for a Young Earth?, 1999-2000, http://www.lpl.arizona.edu/~matthewt/yeclaimsbeta.html, accessed October 11, 2013.

[x] Morris, J. D. 1994. The Young Earth. Master Books. pp. 88-90.

Stewart E. Nevins, M.S., Evolution: The Ocrean says NO!, Institute for Creation Research, http://www.icr.org/article/56/, accessed October 11, 2013.

[xi] A Pocket Guide to…Best Evidences: Science and the Bible refute millions of years, Answers in Genesis – US, 2013.

Andrew Snelling, #1 Very Little Sediment on the Seafloor: 10 Best Evidences From Science That Confirm a Young Earth, September 11, 2012, Answers in Genesis – US, http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/am/v7/n4/little-sediment, accessed October 11, 2013.

Stewart E. Nevins, M.S., Evolution: The Ocrean says NO!, Institute for Creation Research, http://www.icr.org/article/56/, accessed October 11, 2013.

[xii] A Pocket Guide to…Best Evidences: Science and the Bible refute millions of years, Answers in Genesis – US, 2013.

Andrew Snelling, #1 Very Little Salt in the Sea: 10 Best Evidences From Science That Confirm a Young Earth, September 11, 2012, Answers in Genesis – US, http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/am/v7/n4/sea-salt, accessed October 11, 2013.

Stewart E. Nevins, M.S., Evolution: The Ocrean says NO!, Institute for Creation Research, http://www.icr.org/article/56/, accessed October 11, 2013.

The Cambrian Explosion: Fast Evolution or Flood Layers of Buried Organisms?

To begin is some general questions in brief with the research that talks about that question. Then I have my writing on the topic from the Naturalistic view and the Creation view.


Is this right? Do you evolutionists agree with your position? I tried to write it as you believe it. Do you have any disagreements or concerns or additions?

1.       The Cambrian Explosion and Punctuated Equilibrium

a.       How did the earlier organisms evolve into different types and the vast amount of new forms?

b.      Where are the evolutionary links?

c.       How did it happen so fast?

d.      What environmental change could have done that?

e.      How do we know how long it took?

f.        Why do we see so much catastrophe in burial?

g.       http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/am/v5/n1/life-explosion

http://creation.com/exploding-evolution

http://www.icr.org/article/6507/

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/library/03/4/l_034_02.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambrian_explosion

Title:  Cambrian Explosion by Brian Mariani and others

 

Introduction:

                The Cambrian Explosion is the supposed explosion of life in which only a few simple organisms immediately burst into a large variety of more complex organisms. This was also a point in time where many organisms went extinct. The evidence and basis for this idea is that there are simple fossils in the lower rock layers (Precambrian) and in practically a few layers of time, there are more fossils of bigger and better organisms in a large variety of new animal groups in the Cambrian layers.

How could the theory of evolution explain such an impossibly fast transition of fossils in the fossil record? Could the organisms have evolved that fast? Was there more time that is not recorded between those rock layers? What could be the cause of so much change?

 

Naturalistic/Evolutionary Answer:

                Over the 4.5 billion year history of the earth, the rock layers have been building up slowly a little at a time due to seasonal flooding or ocean/lake sediments building up on the floor. As life slowly evolved on earth due to mutations and environmental stresses, small organisms evolved into bigger and more complex organisms. So as these organisms are trapped in the sediments, they are able to fossilize. Thus the fossils in the Precambrian rock should be smaller and less advanced.

                Between 570-530 million years ago, there was very rapid change of organisms possibly encouraged by greater oxygen levels than ever before and/or with the extinction event of many organisms, the newer organisms changed rapidly to fill the niches in the new environments. An ice age or “Snowball Earth” at this time may have caused the change of environments and mechanism for evolution.[i] Ozone was finally thick enough to start shielding the earth from harmful UV rays to allow for more evolution. With more underwater volcanism, more calcium would have been available in the oceans for organisms to develop and evolve their shells.[ii] It is debated, but some believe that the evolution of eyes and eyesight caused an explosion of evolution as predators and prey coevolved.[iii]

This turnover in species was pushed by “an unprecedented period of evolutionary experimentation – and competition.”[iv] Once the new organisms settled into a new environment, evolutionary changes were again small and minor changes in a stable environment. These new organisms represent the ancestors of most modern day organisms.

This sudden “Cambrian Explosion” can also be termed “Punctuated Equilibrium” meaning that the slow, steady process of evolution jumped due to drastic changes in environment led to many drastic changes in the prior species’ evolution into new species.

                “It's important to remember that what we call "the fossil record" is only the available fossil record.”[v] More transitional fossils or missing links of the species in between would be expected to be found, although those transitional organisms may not have been buried under the right conditions and therefore may not have been preserved. If the transitional organisms were fossilized, they may have been eroded from the fossil record. So it is not necessarily unusual that there are jumps between grandfather species to grandson species simply since maybe Dad was not preserved.

 

Creation Answer:

                The Fossil Record is made up of layer after layer of rock that has been laid down by the different water currents before, during and after the flood. The fossils found within the layers are the animals that have been caught up and buried rapidly in those sediments. As the sediments build up during the flood, a sorting happens, which is natural.

Lower layers like the Precambrian will have smaller organisms that are less able to move and escape the landslides and sediment deposits amidst the swirling flood waters. The organisms that are faster yet still slow will be buried next. Then larger and more mobile organisms will be able to swim or run uphill or climb higher till eventually they are submerged and buried.

                It also depends on where and when the muddy sediments sweep through and engulf a specific environment. We see evidence of large schools of fish all swimming together and buried instantly. Chances are you may have seen evidence of rock layers where the sediments have been swirled and smashed together leaving a concrete of smashed up fossils, often shelled organisms, which is evidence of a destructive flood, not slow burial over long ages.

                So what are the fossils? “Precambrian fossils included bizarre organisms too different from Cambrian animals to be their ancestors.” The organisms found in the Cambrian turned out to be “fossils of all the animal “crown groups”—those groups most different from each other and thus from the most distant parts (or “crown”) of the animal ‘family tree.’” So this diverse amount of organisms would need to have evolved but “the ancestors of all 30–40 major animal groups (phyla)” are simply missing![vi]

                The basic premise of evolution is that things change slowly over long periods of time. “Without the time, the formula cannot work, and yet Cambrian fossils are a parade of well-designed creatures that lived at the same time, not in separate evolutionary ages.” Evolutionists are forced to come up with ideas as to how they could have evolved, and some suggest “that animals were actually alive and evolving 800 million years ago. But without the fossils to support their story, why should other scientists believe it?” [vii]

Evolutionary studies of the Cambrian explosion are on the verge of being more story-telling rather than scientific since there are so many unknowns and there is no known mechanism for change, just guesses.

                Our theory should be supported by the evidence that we do see (flood burials, lack of transitional fossils, totally new family groups than what existed before), not the evidence that hasn’t been found yet.

 

What the Bible Says: Creation - Gen 1, Flood - Gen 6-9, Is 54:9-10, Matt 24:38-39, Luke 17:26-28, 2 Pet 2:5, 2 Pet 3:3-7

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[i] Hoffman, P.F., Kaufman, A.J., Halverson, G.P., and Schrag, D.P. (28 August 1998). "A Neoproterozoic Snowball Earth" (abstract). Science 281 (5381): 1342–1346.

[ii] Novel Evolutionary Theory For The Explosion Of Life, October 27, 2009, Science Daily, http://www.sott.net/article/195681-Novel-Evolutionary-Theory-For-The-Explosion-Of-Life, accessed September 20, 2013.

[iii] McCall (2006). "The Vendian (Ediacaran) in the geological record: Enigmas in geology's prelude to the Cambrian explosion". Earth-Science Reviews 77: 1.

[iv] The Cambrian Explosion, 2001, PBS, http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/library/03/4/l_034_02.html, accessed September 20, 2013.

[v] The Cambrian Explosion, 2001, PBS, http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/library/03/4/l_034_02.html, accessed September 20, 2013.

[vi] Wise, Kurt, Five Fossil Mysteries: One: Life’s Unexpected Explosion: What Explains the Cambrian Explosion?, November 23, 2009, Answers in Genesis, http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/am/v5/n1/life-explosion, accessed September 20, 2013.

Wieland, Carl, Exploding Evolution: Creatures found as fossils in ‘Cambrian’ rocks have no evolutionary ancestors. And no new basic body plans have appeared since. Creation Ministries International, http://creation.com/exploding-evolution, accessed September 20, 2013.

[vii] Thomas, Brian M.S., Is the Cambrian Explosion Problem Solved?, Institute for Creation Research, http://www.icr.org/article/6507/, accessed September 20, 2013.