Ocean Sediments and Salts: What do they really tell us?

To begin is some general questions in brief with the research that talks about that question. Then I have my writing on the topic from the Naturalistic view and the Creation view.


Is this right? Do you evolutionists agree with your position? I tried to write it as you believe it. Do you have any disagreements or concerns or additions?





Ocean Sediments and Salt

a.       There is not enough sediment in the ocean especially if there were more time for erosion to occur.

                                                              i.      A Pocket Guide to…Best Evidences: Science and the Bible refute millions of years, Answers in Genesis – US, 2013.

                                                            ii.      http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/am/v7/n4/little-sediment  

                                                          iii.      http://www.icr.org/article/56/

b.       Over time the ocean would become more filled with sediments and salts, but currently the ocean is not that salty, another evidence of a young earth.

                                                        i.            http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/am/v7/n4/sea-salt

                                                      ii.            http://www.palomar.edu/oceanography/salty_ocean.htm

                                                    iii.            http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&ved=0CEYQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Foceanservice.noaa.gov%2Ffacts%2Fwhysalty.html&ei=EDdYUsPPDZTlyAHOpoH4Bw&usg=AFQjCNH0oR27i1gc87dIAkbqeeW66c5ZoQ&bvm=bv.53899372,d.aWc

c.       Are the estimations being exaggerated? Are the estimations accurate? Are the estimations twisted to present one view better than another? Who do we believe? The question is basically: which side do we have more faith in?

                                                              i.      http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/hovind/howgood-yea.html

1.       Numbers 13, 15, 21, 24

                                                            ii.      http://www.lpl.arizona.edu/~matthewt/yeclaimsbeta.html

Title:  Ocean Sediments and Salt by Brian Mariani and others

 

Introduction:

                 The ocean is salty and full of sediments. How salty is the ocean? How much sediment is in the oceans? Is this evidence that the earth is only thousands not millions of years old? Why is the ocean salty? Does the saltiness of the ocean fluctuate?

 

Naturalistic/Evolutionary Answer:

                There is not as much sediments in the ocean, because seafloor sediments have accumulated at a much slower rate in the past and high levels of tectonic activity would rid the oceans of much of the sediments that had been deposited.[i]

The slower rate of sediment accumulation in the past may be in part due to increased desertification and human influence on the land, like so much deforestation, loss of vegetative cover, and simply hard use of the land. Live Science reports that “human activity causes 10 times more soil erosion than all natural processes combined.”[ii]

Some sediment has subducted into the crust of the earth due to the movement of tectonic plates. Sea floor spreading is the process of the sea floor moving like a conveyor belt with new rock churning up from below and sediments on the ocean floor funneled back into the earth under ocean trenches.[iii]

                Oceans have also been in different places in the past and so as continents uplift, submerge or change over time, the oceans are not constantly stacking up sediment in one place. Ocean floor can uplift and again become landmasses.[iv]

How salty is the ocean? “Some scientists estimate that the oceans contain as much as 50 quadrillion tons (50 million billion tons) of dissolved solids. If the salt in the sea could be removed and spread evenly over the Earth’s land surface it would form a layer more than 500 feet thick .”[v]

                The oceans are salty because of the sediments and salts that are constantly washed out into the sea from off of the continents. The oceans are not too salty because today they “probably have a balanced salt input and outgo” because “about the same tonnage of salt from the ocean water probably is deposited as sediment on the ocean bottom.”[vi]

                The extensive size of the oceans (about 70% of the Earth’s surface) create challenges in truly understanding everything about the oceans. “The salinity of ocean water varies. It is affected by such factors as melting of ice, inflow of river water, evaporation, rain, snowfall, wind, wave motion, and ocean currents that cause horizontal and vertical mixing of the saltwater.” It is also possible that “sea life has a strong influence on the composition of sea water.”[vii]

“At least 72 chemical elements have been identified in sea water” some more abundant in certain places. Europe, for instance, contributes more salt to the ocean than Australia. In chemistry, when certain chemicals come together, they become insoluble (not dissolvable in water). So those solid salts will gradually fall to the ocean floor.[viii]

Ultimately, there are so many things going on with…the ocean, that there may be many other factors that affect the sediment and salt content of the ocean. Rates and estimations are approximated and so one has to be careful in evaluating, extrapolating, and making conclusions about the age of the ocean.[ix]

 

Creation Answer:

“Every year water and wind erode about 20 billion tons of dirt and rock debris from the continents and deposit them on the seafloor.” So “the seafloor should be choked with sediment many miles deep.” On average, there is only about 1,300 feet of sediment which is not even close to a mile deep. Sediment is known to be lost due to tectonic plate activity, but with everything into account, that 1,300 feet of sediment would take 12 million years to form and that’s it. However, that doesn’t cause a problem for us, because the global flood would have caused a lot of sediment to build up initially. Over about 3 billion years, the sediment would be “250x more sediment than we seen today.” This is a huge difference.

The argument that the sediments may not have accumulated that fast in the past still has other problems. The shape of the sediments off the coast is evidence of sediments being rushed off the continents quickly and not over a very slow process. The underwater landscape would look totally different if it had formed slowly over billions of years.

Ultimately as erosion rates go, the continents would erode “into the ocean in about 14 million years.”[x] So how do we still even have continents if the Earth has been changing for supposedly millions and billions of years?[xi]

                Part of the sediments eroding into the water is salt, which is dissolved into sea water and that is why the oceans taste salty. So over time, as more erosion occurs, the oceans get saltier. “After 3 billion years, we would expect to see 70x more salt in the ocean than we see today.” 122 million tons of sodium are removed from the oceans each year, but this is not much compared to the 458 million tons that are added each year. Current salt levels would have only taken 42 million years to add up.

                Again, to uphold an old earth point of view, one would have to claim that the rates of change were a lot different throughout history.[xii]

                From a old earth point of view, these sediments and salts would be devastating to the evolution of ocean and land organisms. If the waters had too much sediment or salt, they would not be very suitable for life.

Evolutionists have to make large, extensive assumptions about the history of the Earth, whereas one assumption (accredited by God and history) that there was a massive worldwide flood over a short Earth history is a simpler solution.

 

What the Bible Says: Creation - Genesis 1, The Flood - Gen 7-9

 

Pictures to Add: Erosion, Continental Shelf, Ocean Trench, Salt Depictions, Sediment Depictions,

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[i] A Pocket Guide to…Best Evidences: Science and the Bible refute millions of years, Answers in Genesis – US, 2013.

Stewart E. Nevins, M.S., Evolution: The Ocrean says NO!, Institute for Creation Research, http://www.icr.org/article/56/, accessed October 11, 2013.

[ii] Earth Movers: Humans Cause Most Erosion, November 3, 2004, LiveScience Staff, LiveScience, http://www.livescience.com/63-earth-movers-humans-erosion.html, accessed October 11, 2013.

[iii] A Pocket Guide to…Best Evidences: Science and the Bible refute millions of years, Answers in Genesis – US, 2013.

Stewart E. Nevins, M.S., Evolution: The Ocrean says NO!, Institute for Creation Research, http://www.icr.org/article/56/, accessed October 11, 2013.

[iv] Stewart E. Nevins, M.S., Evolution: The Ocrean says NO!, Institute for Creation Research, http://www.icr.org/article/56/, accessed October 11, 2013.

[v] Herbert Swenson, Why is the Ocean Salty? US Geological Survey Publication, http://www.palomar.edu/oceanography/salty_ocean.htm, accessed October 11, 2013.

[vi] Herbert Swenson, Why is the Ocean Salty? US Geological Survey Publication, http://www.palomar.edu/oceanography/salty_ocean.htm, accessed October 11, 2013.

[vii] Herbert Swenson, Why is the Ocean Salty? US Geological Survey Publication, http://www.palomar.edu/oceanography/salty_ocean.htm, accessed October 11, 2013.

[viii] Herbert Swenson, Why is the Ocean Salty? US Geological Survey Publication, http://www.palomar.edu/oceanography/salty_ocean.htm, accessed October 11, 2013.

[ix] Matthew S. Tiscareno, Is There Really Scientific Evidence for a Young Earth?, 1999-2000, http://www.lpl.arizona.edu/~matthewt/yeclaimsbeta.html, accessed October 11, 2013.

[x] Morris, J. D. 1994. The Young Earth. Master Books. pp. 88-90.

Stewart E. Nevins, M.S., Evolution: The Ocrean says NO!, Institute for Creation Research, http://www.icr.org/article/56/, accessed October 11, 2013.

[xi] A Pocket Guide to…Best Evidences: Science and the Bible refute millions of years, Answers in Genesis – US, 2013.

Andrew Snelling, #1 Very Little Sediment on the Seafloor: 10 Best Evidences From Science That Confirm a Young Earth, September 11, 2012, Answers in Genesis – US, http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/am/v7/n4/little-sediment, accessed October 11, 2013.

Stewart E. Nevins, M.S., Evolution: The Ocrean says NO!, Institute for Creation Research, http://www.icr.org/article/56/, accessed October 11, 2013.

[xii] A Pocket Guide to…Best Evidences: Science and the Bible refute millions of years, Answers in Genesis – US, 2013.

Andrew Snelling, #1 Very Little Salt in the Sea: 10 Best Evidences From Science That Confirm a Young Earth, September 11, 2012, Answers in Genesis – US, http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/am/v7/n4/sea-salt, accessed October 11, 2013.

Stewart E. Nevins, M.S., Evolution: The Ocrean says NO!, Institute for Creation Research, http://www.icr.org/article/56/, accessed October 11, 2013.

Similar Worldwide Rock Layers: What do they really tell us?

To begin is some general questions in brief with the research that talks about that question. Then I have my writing on the topic from the Naturalistic view and the Creation view.


Is this right? Do you evolutionists agree with your position? I tried to write it as you believe it. Do you have any disagreements or concerns or additions?





Similar Worldwide Rock Layers

a.       Folds and Bends that indicate the rock layers were soft all at once.

                                                              i.      http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/am/v7/n4/bent-rock-layers

b.      Jumbled fossils, full mass fossil beds are evidence of a large flood.

c.       Large layers spread across continents.

                                                              i.      http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/am/v3/n3/transcontinental-rock-layers#fnList_1_1

d.      Evidence of large strong water currents (cross-bedding) throughout rock layers

e.      If rock layers formed slowly over long periods of time, why are they as consistent as they are? Rock layers would not have formed this nicely and completely over long periods of time, if they did, we ought to see more erosion in the layers. A quick burial and formation of layers makes more sense than ancient seas at different times all over the world.

f.        Creation Resources:

                                                              i.      http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/am/v2/n4/geologic-evidences-part-one

1.       Follow this intro to the other articles.

                                                            ii.      http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/cfl/how-fast

                                                          iii.      http://www.creationevidence.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=49

                                                           iv.      http://www.icr.org/article/242/107/

                                                             v.      http://www.icr.org/article/5833/

                                                           vi.      Geology examples and overview - http://creation.com/geology-and-the-young-earth

g.       Evolution Resources

                                                              i.      http://academic.brooklyn.cuny.edu/geology/leveson/core/topics/time/froshlec8.html

                                                            ii.      http://www.prehistoricplanet.com/news/index.php?id=48

                                                          iii.      http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/env99/env99396.htm

                                                           iv.      http://www.necsi.edu/projects/evolution/evidence/layers/evidence_layers.html

Title:  Similar Worldwide Rock Layers by Brian Mariani and others

 

Introduction:

Rock layers are levels of sediment that build up over time. They look like bands and they usually run horizontally, but can sometimes be slanted or vertical due to its compaction and formation being on an angle like sand dunes or due to seismic activity. In rock layers, fossils can be found giving evidence of the past. How did the rock layers really form? How fast did they form? How many rock layers are there? How do the rock layers compare all over the world? What causes their deformation?

 

Naturalistic/Evolutionary Answer:

 

Rock layers are formed by many seasonal flood deposits, by volcanic deposition, and by sediment deposition, especially at the bottom of lakes or large ancient seas. Volcanic material and/or sediments build up and cover the earth and rock layers are created by wind or by water when enough sediments are built up creating pressure on lower layers.[i]  A rock layer will cover dead and living animals and plants. 

The amount of lime or cementing agent is used in the sediment mixture will determine how long it will take to turn into rock. If there is a lot of lime it may take only a few years, if there is little to none, then pressure and hot water have to pack the sediment into rock and that might take “many thousands of years.” This is part of why different rocks have a higher or lower hardness.[ii] Volcanic rocks could form within minutes.

The age of the fossil can be determined by its depth below the surface, the deeper the fossil, the older the age.  Older rock layers have simpler, less evolved organisms than higher, younger rock layers.[iii] This is not “an abstract diagram: this is the actual record of the earth's crust, recorded in rocks around the world…Since fossils progress from fish at the bottom to humans at the top, we have clear evidence that life evolved through time.”[iv]

 Occasionally in the fossil layers, there are unconformities where there are missing layers in one region. Those missing layers may not have formed in that area at that time or they did form, but were consequently eroded away.[v]

 

Creation Answer:

“Evolutionists and creationists agree: the ideal conditions for forming most fossils and fossil-bearing rock layers are flood conditions. The debate is just whether it was many “little floods” over a long time, or mostly the one big Flood of Noah’s time.”[vi]

Go out and find a piece of concrete and try bending it. This is one of the problems for old rock layers all over the world in that hardened rock will crack and break when pushed or pulled. But we see smoothly bent rock layers all over the world.[vii]

This could be done if the layers (millions of years worth) were soft all at the same time or if the layers were under extreme heat and pressure their shape could deform without breaking. The problem with the latter view is that the pressure and temperature would have metamorphosized and changed the rock, but these examples of bent layers are still sedimentary rock layers. The best explanation is that they were soft at the same time and laid down nearly at the same time and uplifted at the same time. This is a massive geological event consistent with a global flood.[viii]

Rock layers are different from each other based on their composition, temperature and how fast or slow their flood current is. In some layers, you have very fine grains of sediments and in other layers, there large boulders as big as cars, which means that a fast current would have had to carry those huge boulders. From their view, evolutionists can’t explain these boulders.

As different currents are swirling during the time of the flood, you would have different layers (think of them like pancakes) formed even in different places (offset pancakes). This is why there are often missing layers in one region but there in order in a different region.

Ph.D. Geologist Steven A. Austin says that “Every continent contains layers of sedimentary rocks that span vast areas. Many of these layers can even be traced across continents.” There are “six megasequences (very thick, distinctive sequences of sedimentary rock layers) that can be traced right across North America.”[ix] Some of these sequences include layers like the Tapeats Sandstone that covers most of North America and even beyond, and chalk beds that stretch across a large part of Europe and into the Middle East, and the Coal Bed that stretches through much of North America as well.[x]

Other evidences that point to a global flood are the rapidly buried fossils (some even “misplaced” or “out of place” fossils with reference to the evolutionary timeline[xi]), jumbled-up mass fossil beds, sea creature fossils high above sea level, rapid or no erosion between strata, sediments in rock layers have been transported long distances, and the layers appear to be laid down in rapid succession (polystrate fossils lie vertical through “millions of years” of deposition).[xii] The global flood would have been perfect conditions for making rock layers. 

 

What the Bible Says: Genesis 6-7

 

“Rocks and Layers” accessed 5:14 P.M. 10/24/12 http://pubs.usgs.gov/gip/fossils/rocks-layers.html[i]

 

“CEM Research and Polystrate fossils” accessed 8:06 P.M.  11/11/12 http://www.creationevidence.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=49

 

Pictures to add: Worldwide rock layers map, Tapeats Sandstone layer map, Grand Canyon and other Bands, Pancake pictures, Polystrate Fossils, Boulders in Layers, Bent Layers, Geologic column

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[i] Shlomiya Bar-Yam, Fossil Layers, New England Complex Systems Institute, http://www.necsi.edu/projects/evolution/evidence/layers/evidence_layers.html, accessed October 10, 2013.

[ii] Bob Avakian, Time to Form Sedimentary Rocks, February 2009, Newton: Ask a Scientist, U.S. Department of Energy Office of Science, http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/env99/env99396.htm, accessed October 10, 2013.

[iii] Rock Layers: Timeline of Life on Earth, Prehistoric Planet, PaleoClones, LLC, http://www.prehistoricplanet.com/news/index.php?id=48, accessed October 10, 2013.

[iv] Rock Layers: Timeline of Life on Earth, Prehistoric Planet, PaleoClones, LLC, http://www.prehistoricplanet.com/news/index.php?id=48, accessed October 10, 2013.

[v] David J. Leveson, Relative Age: Determining Relative Age From The Rock Record, 2006, http://academic.brooklyn.cuny.edu/geology/leveson/core/topics/time/froshlec8.html, accessed October 10, 2013.

[vi] Dr. Gary Parker, Creation: Facts of Life, How Fast?, January 1, 1994, http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/cfl/how-fast, accessed October 10, 2013.

[vii] A Pocket Guide to…Best Evidences: Science and the Bible refute millions of years, Answers in Genesis – US, 2013.

[viii] A Pocket Guide to…Best Evidences: Science and the Bible refute millions of years, Answers in Genesis – US, 2013.

[ix] Andrew A. Snelling, Ph.D., Transcontinental Rock Layers: Flood Evidence Number Three, May 7, 2008, Answers in Genesis, http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/am/v3/n3/transcontinental-rock-layers#fnList_1_1, accessed October 10, 2013.

L. L. Sloss, “Sequences in the Cratonic Interior of North America,” Geological Society of America Bulletin 74 (1963): 93–114.

[x] Andrew A. Snelling, Ph.D., Transcontinental Rock Layers: Flood Evidence Number Three, May 7, 2008, Answers in Genesis, http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/am/v3/n3/transcontinental-rock-layers#fnList_1_1, accessed October 10, 2013.

[xi] Dr. Gary Parker, Creation: Facts of Life, How Fast?, January 1, 1994, http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/cfl/how-fast, accessed October 10, 2013.

[xii] Andrew A. Snelling, Ph.D., Geologic Evidences for the Genesis Flood: Part 1: An Overview, September 18, 2007, Answers in Genesis, http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/am/v2/n4/geologic-evidences-part-one, accessed October 10, 2013.

CEM Research and Polystrate Fossils, Creation Evidence Museum of Texas, http://www.creationevidence.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=49, accessed October 10, 2013.